39 replies to this topic

[Chato]

Big Blooming Blighter, on 03 October 2010 - 12:59 AM, said:

Chato,

I wonder if you are applying to broad a definition to 'God'. Even granting that angels, demons, et al are, in some sense, deified within Christian doctrine, they certainly are not ever referred to as 'Gods'. Perhaps they might be called 'gods', but the capitalisation of the 'g' is important in distinguishing between lesser deities and the supreme 'God'.

However, I think the main crux of the problem is that the Semitic religions all derived from polytheistic sources. The Old Testament is rife with examples of other gods that, ultimately do not measure up to the supremacy of the Abrahamic God. What presents itself, therefore, is Judaic Henotheism. Since these lesser gods are deemed unworthy of worship, a Semitic worshipper would disregard them, and so for all intents and purposes, the Judeo-Christian religion effectively becomes monotheistic.

In short, religion develops, and worshippers don't always remember to proof read old texts.

Difficult to directly answer your post. But as a child I learned over and over and over again, that Judaism, and Christianity, are "Monotheistic," i.e. One God. Do Angels have super powers? Demons, Fallen Angels? Clearly the answer is yes. If so, they have more powers than I do. I sit and exercise MY super powers and nothing happens.

(Very depressing. I can't even get rid of the Bedbugs that plague me)

Yours is a semantic objection. If we set up objective criteria, then how can we avoid calling these beings Gods? They live forever, even the (he, he, heh) One God seems to have trouble getting rid of those who are in his bad graces.

But it's not a question of what people believe, it's a question which we discuss. By any definition, by whatever name, these creatures are Gods.

(Allah willing of course)

Dave

[The Heretic]

The Blighter is essentially correct, that the first 5 books of the Bible is henotheistic.

The Hebrew Bible is the result of the religion of the time of the composition of the texts. Each text is actually a combo of sources, in which each source preserved a religious and a political POV. Some of them were contrary to the prevailing opinion of the time. The evidence for polytheism in the religion of the authors who wrote the texts of the Torah (the Pentateuch or the 1st 5 books of the Hebrew bible) exists in the extra-biblical inscriptions, iconography and in the texts themselves. Polytheism is the belief in many gods, whereas henotheism refers to the worship of 1 god over other gods.

There's clear textual evidence for polytheism and henotheism in Exodus. In Exodus 15:2-18, the independent poem, the "Song of the Sea" (possibly the oldest composition in the Hebrew Bible) asks in verse 11:

"Who among the gods is like you, YHWH?"

In this verse, YHWH is considered greater than the other gods.
A verse from a different source states that "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the other gods" (Exod 18:11). Moses and his "secretaries" admit the existence of other gods, while praising theirs, YHWH, above the rest.
The next 5 passages from Exodus reiterates that it is forbidden to worship other gods. They have nothing to do with worshiping mere idols or statues, for the passages acknowledge that the other gods exist, but not worshiped:

Quote

Exodus 20:3 "You shall not have other gods before my face."

Exodus 22:19 "One who sacrifices to gods shall be completely destroyed--except to YHWH alone."

Exodus 23:24 "Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices."

Exodus 23:32 "Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods."

Exodus 34:14 "Do not worship any other god, for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, and is a jealous God.

There is a separate and different command that prohibits creating and worshipping idols in Exodus 20:4. There's more but this should do for now.

[Chato]

The Heretic, on 03 October 2010 - 02:16 AM, said:

The Blighter is essentially correct, that the first 5 books of the Bible is henotheistic.

The Hebrew Bible is the result of the religion of the time of the composition of the texts. Each text is actually a combo of sources, in which each source preserved a religious and a political POV. Some of them were contrary to the prevailing opinion of the time. The evidence for polytheism in the religion of the authors who wrote the texts of the Torah (the Pentateuch or the 1st 5 books of the Hebrew bible) exists in the extra-biblical inscriptions, iconography and in the texts themselves. Polytheism is the belief in many gods, whereas henotheism refers to the worship of 1 god over other gods.

There's clear textual evidence for polytheism and henotheism in Exodus. In Exodus 15:2-18, the independent poem, the "Song of the Sea" (possibly the oldest composition in the Hebrew Bible) asks in verse 11:

"Who among the gods is like you, YHWH?"

In this verse, YHWH is considered greater than the other gods.
A verse from a different source states that "Now I know that YHWH is greater than all the other gods" (Exod 18:11). Moses and his "secretaries" admit the existence of other gods, while praising theirs, YHWH, above the rest.
The next 5 passages from Exodus reiterates that it is forbidden to worship other gods. They have nothing to do with worshiping mere idols or statues, for the passages acknowledge that the other gods exist, but not worshiped:

Quote

Exodus 20:3 "You shall not have other gods before my face."

Exodus 22:19 "One who sacrifices to gods shall be completely destroyed--except to YHWH alone."

Exodus 23:24 "Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices."

Exodus 23:32 "Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods."

Exodus 34:14 "Do not worship any other god, for YHWH, whose name is Jealous, and is a jealous God.

There is a separate and different command that prohibits creating and worshipping idols in Exodus 20:4. There's more but this should do for now.

All well and good, but Christianity recognizes both the Angels and Satan. And my point is that by any objective criteria, these too are Gods; i.e. Super human creatures with independent powers and existence, who are also immortal.

Dave

[The Heretic]

That's slightly misleading, Chato. If you asked a Christian, they would not share your perspective, that their religion was henotheistic just because they have angels that are immortal and superhuman. Since they have a different definition for what passes as a god, you're reinterpreting Christianity to serve your argument.

[Big Blooming Blighter]

Agreed.

As I said, Chato, you are applying too broad a definition to the term 'God' to suit your argument.

Moreso, that you are using the capitalised 'God' in favour of 'god'.

[Chato]

The Heretic, on 03 October 2010 - 05:32 PM, said:

That's slightly misleading, Chato. If you asked a Christian, they would not share your perspective, that their religion was henotheistic just because they have angels that are immortal and superhuman. Since they have a different definition for what passes as a god, you're reinterpreting Christianity to serve your argument.

You can add Muslim to the list as well. But what they say is contradicted by what they take for granted. The word Angel, is not the word God, but is not an Angel a God? Is not Satan a God? This is my point. That they say they believe in One God, doesn't make it true. They believe in a Big shot powerful God, but he is surrounded by independent entities who have all the attributes of Gods. Some serve him, some serve no one. The Koran describes the "Jinn," are they somehow not Gods as well?

To validate your position, explain the attributes of a God, and then tell me how these Devils and Angels do not possess these attributes.

Dave

[Big Blooming Blighter]

Omnipresence

Unparalleled sovereignty

[Chato]

Big Blooming Blighter, on 03 October 2010 - 08:14 PM, said:

Omnipresence

Unparalleled sovereignty

Zuse?

Dave

[Big Blooming Blighter]

Zeus was not part of the Judeo-Christian doctrine.

Edited by Big Blooming Blighter, 03 October 2010 - 10:15 PM.

[Chato]

Big Blooming Blighter, on 03 October 2010 - 10:14 PM, said:

Zeus was not part of the Judeo-Christian doctrine.

But Zeus is the heavenly Father. All other Gods are subordinate to him: obey his commands, he assigns them their place and their duties. Who were these lesser gods, who combined were not as strong as he? Call them whatever you want. Angels, Devils, demons, whatever, those names simply mean that they are lesser gods.

Quote

Monotheism:

mon·o·the·ism
   /ˈmɒnəθiˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled[mon-uh-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
the doctrine or belief that there is only one god.

So while the three major western religions make the claim of being Monotheistic, they also believe in lesser, independent, often under no control, sometimes actively hostile, "gods." Gods who plot revolution against the Big Boy.

I really don't see a way around this...

Dave

[Big Blooming Blighter]

The ancient Greeks were not monotheistic, and they certainly were not semitic.

It is, hence, disingenuous of you to turn to Zeus in your attempts to expose Judeo-Christianity as a polytheistic doctrine.

[The Heretic]

Zeus was neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Fate, the Moirae, in graceo-roman mythology, was more powerful than the will of gods. Even almighty Zeus had to bow to their decisions, no matter if that displeased him.

But in Christianity, fate became identical with the will of God, because his attributes changed: all-powerful, all-knowing, etc.

According to the greeks, fate was unpredictable, unknowable, as well as inscrutable and inevitable. All Greek tragedies involved some sort of ignorance about this fundamental truth.

But for Christians, fate became something divinely ordered, or eventually rational, after Enlightenment. Even if we didn't understand our fates, the fact that it was the will of God, that there was a perfect reason for it, helped us cope with the harsher elements of life.

[Scotty]

Just to be clear, I am happy to argue what is boring or not.
-Scott

[Parody of Language]

This thread sort of shows, at least to me, that the concept of "god" is by no means a simple idea. There all different aspects of the Christian god: god as father (creator of the universe), god as lord (sovereign), god as omnipotent (greater than all the other gods/beings), and god as all-good (human lives are to be judged by the standard set by god), and this is probably just the tip of the ice berg. I think Chato has in mind the idea that there is a single "god concept" by which, for example, the Greek gods and the Christian god are comparable, and so from this perspective it makes sense to ask, "If Zeus is a god, why aren't angels, who also possess superhuman powers, also considered gods? If you still insist that angels aren't gods, then why are the gods of the Greek pantheon, such as Zeus, considered gods, since they don't seem to be much more powerful than angels?" The Devil, who seems to be widely capable in Christianity, is merely a fallen angel remember.

I think that a lot of atheists that I see online sort of also believe that there is a single "god concept" when they understand their atheism to be a rejection in the belief in everything that could be considered a god. While these atheists think they have a sensible position, I think this position also involves a redefinition of "god" as some sort of super-spiritual voodoo machine, basically something that is by definition unreasonable. Maybe there isn't a single god concept; maybe "religions" are called religions only in comparison to the dominant religions that the population is familiar with (language, itself, seems to evolve in a populist manner); maybe the term doesn't do justice to what the people so ascribed actually believe and practice.

My sense, originally, was that angels received all of their powers through god, and so they were essentially dependent on god and god could depower them at any time. But, thinking about that, it doesn't make sense as then god would have depowered Satan long ago, so it seems that angels must have some sort of independent power. But then, god must have judged that keeping Satan around is good, as god, being omnipotent, could have ridden Satan from the world long ago, so maybe preserving his powers is also good in some way.

Yeah, being atheist means I don't have to think too much about these sorts of things

[Chato]

Parody of Language, on 04 October 2010 - 04:14 PM, said:

This thread sort of shows, at least to me, that the concept of "god" is by no means a simple idea. There all different aspects of the Christian god: god as father (creator of the universe), god as lord (sovereign), god as omnipotent (greater than all the other gods/beings), and god as all-good (human lives are to be judged by the standard set by god), and this is probably just the tip of the ice berg. I think Chato has in mind the idea that there is a single "god concept" by which, for example, the Greek gods and the Christian god are comparable, and so from this perspective it makes sense to ask, "If Zeus is a god, why aren't angels, who also possess superhuman powers, also considered gods? If you still insist that angels aren't gods, then why are the gods of the Greek pantheon, such as Zeus, considered gods, since they don't seem to be much more powerful than angels?" The Devil, who seems to be widely capable in Christianity, is merely a fallen angel remember.

I think that a lot of atheists that I see online sort of also believe that there is a single "god concept" when they understand their atheism to be a rejection in the belief in everything that could be considered a god. While these atheists think they have a sensible position, I think this position also involves a redefinition of "god" as some sort of super-spiritual voodoo machine, basically something that is by definition unreasonable. Maybe there isn't a single god concept; maybe "religions" are called religions only in comparison to the dominant religions that the population is familiar with (language, itself, seems to evolve in a populist manner); maybe the term doesn't do justice to what the people so ascribed actually believe and practice.

My sense, originally, was that angels received all of their powers through god, and so they were essentially dependent on god and god could depower them at any time. But, thinking about that, it doesn't make sense as then god would have depowered Satan long ago, so it seems that angels must have some sort of independent power. But then, god must have judged that keeping Satan around is good, as god, being omnipotent, could have ridden Satan from the world long ago, so maybe preserving his powers is also good in some way.

Yeah, being atheist means I don't have to think too much about these sorts of things

I'm into this vague, Zen Buddhist routine, that more or less leaves me as an Atheist, and yet can't quite escape the concept of religion. Religion, spirituality, whatever you want to call it.

Yes, your post pretty much sums up my feelings. If God is omnipotent, then just who is the Devil? Since he's an Angel, that implies that Angels are independent of God, and could if they so choose, join Satans revolution. Many apparently did...

Moreover there are other implications. Since Satan led a revolt from God, then one has to ask, is he dumb as a rock? Surely he knows that God is Omnipotent? What's the point in revolting? Some sort of death wish? Moreover Christianity does accept the Old Testimant as the word of God. Christ merely lifted some of the restrictions because they were no longer needed. So, such being the case we know that Angels came down to earth, fornicated with mortals and produced Demons and Giants. Says so right in the Bible...

Sounds like these Angels were independent of God, or God was really into mass fornication...

Let me raise another question. Hinduism institutionalizes many Gods. The list of Hindu Gods is endless. Yet Hinduism also believes that all the Gods are temporary manifestations of one bored as hell God, who periodically passes out and allows a small portion of himself to become the universe - When he's good and ready he calls all this portion of himself back together, and then starts the process over again. In my opinion, this deals with the subject matter more logically. One truly omnipotent God, who creates out of his own substance, Gods, mortals, the whole universe. The whole universe IS God. The "Atman," i.e., the human soul is immortal and when one realizes this, the individual rejoins Himself/God. I am God, you are God, everything is God.

Dave

Edited by Chato, 04 October 2010 - 04:43 PM.