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Politics discussion in chat.

1 post in this topic

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Here's an interesting politics discussion Null and I were having in chat. Hopefully he doesn't mind my reproducing this. Unfortunately a substantial portion of it was lost due to a WiFi breakdown at my end, making me re-enter chat but losing a lot of stuff. :sandcheer:

Erp! Have to post in two takes because I'm informed there are two many images. Here's take one, take 2 to follow:

  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    has entered the room
  • 0:50
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    :welcome: back, :davidm1:
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    WiFi crapout. :doh:
  • Ty, Null. It is good to be back. :yo:
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    Which kind of wrong-foots the conservatives, because they're almost always destined to lose. So the other part of his examination is to show how conservatives become almost like radicals in their willingness to dismantle and rewrite existing society if it doesn't fit with their utopian vision of reaction.
  • Well, indeed it could be argued that they are almost like anarchists. They didn't hit upon the term anarcho-capitalism by accident, even though in the opinion of anarchists like me the term is misapplied.
  • But authors like Murray Rothbard and Robert Nozick (whose major work is titled Anarchy, State, and Utopia) have worked out the consequences of their flirtation with anarchism into fully fledged and detailed systems.
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    right, it seems to me that their flirtation with anarchism is undermined by their fetish for private property, which is just another form of heirarchy
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    True, and that's why those of us who are left libertarians dismiss anarcho-capitalism as really anarchism.
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    Yes so called conservatives want to not conserve certain long-standing policies and cultural norms, which means they are not conservative at all.
  • 0:55
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    But still, even in its inconsistency, it finds a lot of parallels with anarchism, particularly individualist anarchism (Stirner, Tucker, etc.).
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    They are not conservative. A better term would be reactionary
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    Hence the title of his book. :-D
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    Yes, the relation between libertarianism and anarchism is interesting.
  • It's also interesting how in American politics, the "far right" and the "far left" frequently find common ground -- such as in the otherwise odious Pat
  • .... the other wise odious Pat Buchanan's inveighing against American imperialism in the same way that Gore Vidal did.
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    Well, it's not for nothing that I jokingly describe myself as what happens to a conservative who loses his faith in capitalism and representative democracy. :-D
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    :eyebrows:
  • 1:00
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    Yes, although Pat does it for a completely different reason: paleoconservative isolationism, rather than outrage over the economic exploitation and violations of human rights.
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    yes, that is true, but still
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    It's like Buchanan is still living in the 1930s.
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    He also opposes globalism and the free trade fetish, and he has common ground there too with the left
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    And even then isolationism was more an ideological fixation than a practical reality.
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    He does it for different reasons, but the effect is the same

Take Two:

  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    Well, this is a very interesting conversation, and I hate to bring it to a close, but it's a) 1 a.m. where you are and b ) 10 p.m. where I am, and I haven't eaten dinner yet.
  • I'm starting to get a hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach.
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    I know, I am tired. :sadcheer:
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    Time for Mr. Flipoff to make his entry?
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    It is a great convo. We should make a thread of it. I am often enthralled discussing stuff with you. :)
  • I was going to say that Lincoln dwelt at some length on the definition of conservatism in his admirable Cooper Union address. But we can discuss that another time. Mr. Flipoff is approaching. :)
  • Here he is ...
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    Well, here's an idea: why don't you get the book and we can make a thread of it?
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    What's the book again?
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    The author quotes Lincoln in his introduction. :-D
  • photo-thumb-8.gif?_r=0davidm
    :clap2:
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    The Reactionary Mind: Conservatism from Edmund Burke to Sarah Palin by Corey Robin.
  • 1:05
  • photo-thumb-190.gif?_r=0Nullifidian
    It's now in paperback.

Actually, it merged the two takes into one take after telling me that it couldn't be done in one take. Go figure! :noidea:

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